Wisdom and Folly

Condensed Transcript (as aired on KKLA Radio)

 

In the early morning hours (midnight to 2 a.m. Pacific Time) of July 26, 2008, Jim was interviewed for the Apologetics.com radio show on KKLA (99.5 FM), which broadcasts from San Diego to Santa Barbara, California.  Below is an edited and abbreviated transcript of the interview, which pertains to themes in Jim’s book Gum, Geckos, and God. Thanks to hosts Steve Tsai and Rich Park for having Jim on the show!

  

Questions from hosts Steve Tsai and Rich Park:

 

APOLOGETICS.COM: Do you think in this day and age people have a particular resistance to admitting or acknowledging their own ignorance?”

 

Spiegel: No, this is a universal truth about human nature. Consider Socrates. He went around Athens exposing people’s ignorance with sincere philosophical questions. This practice eventually got him arrested and executed. People today are no different—-we don’t like to have our ignorance revealed. This is why we need to be patient when sharing our worldview with others. People will not very quickly admit when they are wrong or that they lack understanding.

APOLOGETICS.COM: Explain why for God making himself visible would “make himself not God.”

 

Spiegel: The Bible says that God is a Spirit, and spirits are essentially invisible, at least to us in this world. This is why to make himself visible to us God had to “put on a body” in Christ. But notice that it is no different with us. Human spirits are invisible, too. We need bodies in order to relate to one another in a public way.

 
APOLOGETICS.COM: Could you comment more on the spiritual evils one will face
in this world, and how that relates to raising children?

 

Spiegel: In Gum, Geckos, and God I talk about my first realization as a parent that my children are destined, as all of us are, to witness evils in this world that are unspeakable and devastating, whether its learning about the holocaust or losing a loved one. As a consequence of this my wife and I resolved to be very careful with regard to how and when our kids are exposed to some of the harsher facts about this fallen world.  But we also are direct and honest with them when they ask questions about various things they encounter, which in today’s culture can be quite unpredictable, from war to divorce to suicide. When my wife, Amy, had a miscarriage several years ago, this was one of those moments when our oldest, Bailey, had to process some difficult issues regarding pain and suffering, just as Amy and I did. We all had to work through it together, and that was a healthy response to a hard trial.

APOLOGETICS.COM: Some might say calling anything related to philosophy as “practical” is an oxymoron. Do you think you are better off in handling your children’s tough questions as a philosopher? In what way?

 

Spiegel: In the original sense of the term “philosopher” the phrase “practical philosophy” is not an oxymoron.  The root terms of the word “philosophy” actually mean the “love of wisdom” and it’s only a sad quirk about the history of Western philosophy that philosophical studies have so often veered from this concern. As to whether I am better off in handling my kids’ questions as a philosopher, the answer is definitely yes, for several reasons. First, Philosophy involves defining terms and analyzing concepts.  So when my kids ask me how God can be everywhere or what it means to be a good person, I can give a better answer than I could without philosophical training. Philosophy also involves identifying presuppositions behind truth claims and questions. So when my kids ask how God can love us when we are so sinful, I can see that they are making a false assumption—-the notion that God can only love us if we are worthy of his love. The truth is that he loves us because of who HE is, not because of who we are. Though you might also say that He loves us because of who we are in Christ, which actually amounts to the same thing—-God’s Grace. Finally, Philosophy involves making key distinctions.  So when my kids wonder aloud about how Jesus could be God when he has a physical body, I can distinguish between Jesus’ human nature and his divine nature. Now, of course, you don’t have to be a professional philosopher to do these things, but notice how anyone who can give such answers to these questions is actually doing good philosophy.  In fact, I’d say that doing philosophy is unavoidable.  The only question is whether you will do it well or poorly.

 

APOLOGETICS.COM: In your book you note that you can’t imagine a scenario in which you would give up your belief in God. Do you appeal here to the cosmological argument for God’s existence?

 

Spiegel: Yes, insofar as it is premised on the idea that if something exists, then something exists necessarily.  That is, if anything exists at all, then something has to have existed for all eternity.  The only alternative is not really a logical alternative, namely that there has been an infinite series of finite causes.  But this is absurd both because it flies in the face of science (which tells us that the universe had a beginning) and because it implies a contradiction.  In an infinite series, a portion of the series, say half, is equal to the whole (half of infinity is still infinity).  Well in theoretical mathematics it is fine to talk this way, but we know in that in the real world, such a thing is absurd.

 

APOLOGETICS.COM: You also make note of the fact that your belief is also grounded in your “personal experience.” So would you say that your belief in God is based on evidence?  How does this work?

 

Spiegel: My personal experience is one of many “reasons” for my Christian faith. In Gum, Geckos, and God I note that I can’t imagine giving up my faith because I have had so many experiences which confirm its truth.  There are also other evidences that confirm the existence of God, from biological design to the fact of human consciousness. But I also agree with Alvin Plantinga and others who say that belief in God is “properly basic.” That is, you don’t need to be able to recite arguments for God’s existence to have a rational belief in him. Belief in God is a perfectly reasonable starting point. In fact, as a parent it is more clear to me than ever that we are born to know God. Every child has an innate sense of God (Calvin called it the sensus divinitatis).  And unless this sense is squashed somehow through one’s sin, a person will naturally grow in this belief in God. This explains why the overwhelming majority of people believe in a higher power. I see in my kids this natural tendency to believe in God. They each have grasped the concept of God very early and quickly and have never questioned his reality.

 

APOLOGETICS.COM: If God is neither male nor female, why did he reveal himself as the “Father in heaven”?

Spiegel: This is a tough one, but I suspect it has to do with the nature of the relationship between the different persons of the Trinity. We see this reflected in the marriage relationship in the form of the husband’s spiritual headship. We also see it reflected in the fact that Adam was created first and that Jesus came to this world as a male. Having said that, we need to stress that men and women equally display the image of God. We simply express his image in some ways that are different, at least in emphasis. For example, both our capacity for reason and emotion are ways that we reflect the image of God. As we all know, men and women are different in the ways we think and process information as well as in how we process and express emotion. We are different in these ways, but men and women equally reflect God’s image. By the way, when you have kids you see a powerful image of the Trinity, as a third person proceeds forth from the union of husband and wife. There is a begetting of the same nature, just as the Father begat his son Jesus, who shares the Father’s divine nature. Amazing stuff.

 

APOLOGETICS.COM: Some would question whether the concept “location” can be understood apart from the concept of “space.” Now if you hold that spirits are not physical entities subject to the physical dimensions of our material universe, how can they “be somewhere”? How can a physically spaceless entity be located?

 

Spiegel: First, I would make a distinction between earthly physical space and spatial dimensions which may be possible in the spiritual realm.  Perhaps spirits or souls which are invisible in this world are quite visible, even more substantial, in heaven. Second, I would say that spirits can even be spatially located in our physical world in the sense that they perceive from a particular perspective.  A spirit may be said to be located at any place from which it views or perceives the world.

APOLOGETICS.COM: Does it make sense to think that Jesus in his divine nature is omnipresent while in his human nature he is located? Can this be considered a “dual-locality” nature and is it contradictory?

Spiegel: Yes, I think this makes sense. Since Jesus is divine, then his divine attributes must remain intact. And one of these is his omnipresence. God is never located in just one place.  That is, he does not perceive the world from just one location but from every location.  (That is what it means to be omnipresent.) However, since Jesus is fully human as well, he must have a physical body which exists at a particular place. So Jesus’ divine nature and his human nature have different attributes, but this is perfectly consistent. There is no contradiction here. As one Christian philosopher (Thomas Morris) put it, Jesus’ being fully human does not imply that he is merely human. He can be human and more besides—-namely his being divine.

 

APOLOGETICS.COM: Can you further explain this notion of parental “authoritarian illogic.” How much “because I said so” is healthy in a parent-child relationship?  When could it become unhealthy?

 

Spiegel: In Gum, Geckos and God there is a scene where my son Bailey challenges me about not allowing him to see one of the final Star Wars film. I tried to walk him through the reasoning that my wife and I used in censoring that film, but he could only go so far with me. So I had to play the “just trust me” card, which is really an appeal to parental authority.  This is healthy, I think, until we begin to use it as a lazy way out of giving good reasons for our rules and decisions.  And, of course, a parent can use it as a tool to simply manipulate a child, even when the parent’s decision is selfish or unwise. This is very unhealthy.

 

Questions from a panel of young teenagers at the studio:

1. God knows our future and he knows who’s going to heaven or hell and if he loves us, then why doesn’t he keep us from sinning?

Spiegel: This question touches upon the whole issue of divine sovereignty and human free will. I believe in both—-that God is utterly sovereign and that humans are free and morally responsible. For a much more detailed response, see my book The Benefits of Providence, especially the chapter on the problem of evil.

2. Can people from heaven visit earth?

 

Spiegel: While I don’t think people in heaven typically visit earth, I do believe that they have a degree of awareness of our lives here and perhaps even knowledge as to when their loved ones will join them there. However, my beliefs about this are based more on my studies of Near Death Experiences than upon Scripture. Scripture is mostly silent on this. But there is the case of Saul who consulted the Witch of Endor to call up the spirit of Samuel. Samuel’s spirit actually showed up, so here is one case where a departed soul visited Earth. But notice that it was in a context of occult activity, which is strictly forbidden in Scripture. Having lost many friends and family members myself, I understand the temptation to want to “find out” how they are now. But, as I discuss in Gum, Geckos, and God, we are called to trust God about this. We’ll find out soon enough how they are doing. And if you want to pass on your greetings to a friend or family member in heaven, then feel free to ask Jesus to do so.

 

3. Where is God now?

Spiegel: God is omnipresent. So name a place, God is there.  As Psalm 139 says, if I go up to the heavens, he is there, and if I go to the depths of the earth he is there as well. Any place that is a place, that is a place where God is. And, again, I understand God’s omnipresence as a way of referring to the fact that he perceives the whole of reality from every possible point of view.  Perhaps this is why Paul put it this way (quoting a philosopher by the way):  “in Him we live and move and have our being.”

 

4.  Where did God come from?

 

Spiegel: This is one of those questions that I have been asked repeatedly by two of my kids, and I’m sure the other two will ask me this as well, in due time. And its another question that pivots on a false presupposition.  God can’t come from anything because then he wouldn’t be God. There is a scene in Gum, Geckos, and God where we discuss this with my sons Bailey and Sam, and when I try to explain the idea of eternal existence to them Bailey complains that it makes his head hurt. This was a sign to me that he really was grasping the concept of eternity. It hurts your brain to think about it!

 

5. When do you think Jesus will return?

 

Spiegel: Of course, I have no idea when Jesus will return.  But like a lot of people, I have a sense that his return is drawing very close. There are many signs in the world today that are consistent with what Jesus describes in Matthew 24 (famines, earthquakes, wars, etc.) and what Paul refers to in 2 Tim. 3 (extreme godlessness) as indicators of the end of the age. This doesn’t prove that Jesus is coming back so soon, but again it is consistent with this. So the upshot is that we need to be more serious than ever about obeying him, because we should want to be found ready and about his business when he does return.

 

6. What will happen to others who don’t know God exists?

Spiegel: In Romans 1 Paul points out that God has made clear his existence through the things he has made, so that “men are without excuse” if they don’t believe (v. 20). He goes on to point out that many people suppress this knowledge through their own wickedness. So what about those who persevere in their belief in God but never hear of Jesus? Perhaps that is the real question here. To that I say I think God is capable of giving such people special revelation which is sufficient to prompt saving faith in them, whether that revelation comes in the form of a vision or miracle or some other experience of God. Many Christian missionaries report that cultures previously untouched by the gospel nevertheless had many stories and beliefs which had strong gospel elements. This shows that God uses all sorts of means to draw people to himself.

7. In the past, God did many great things that can’t be explained scientifically. Today these things are rare. Why?

 

Spiegel: While miracles may be rare in North America, they don’t seem to be so rare in many other cultures, such as in certain places in Africa, Asia, and South America. One reason for this is perhaps that we just aren’t as expectant when it comes to miracles as people in those cultures are. In J.P. Moreland’s recent book, Kingdom Triangle, he rightly observes that in our culture we are very much taken with scientific naturalism—the view that all events are explainable in terms of physical causes.  Well, this is obviously inconsistent with Scripture. Yet even in the church there is a tendency to assume naturalism and not expect that God would ever perform a miracle. This is very sad, since it amounts to a massive quenching of the Spirit.

 

Do miracles still occur in our culture in 2008?  Absolutely, I have heard accounts from students over the years that are breathtaking—-from spontaneous recoveries from terminal diseases to bullets shot at point blank range falling harmlessly to the ground. In one case, the mother of a student of mine had softball-sized tumor disappear overnight. (When the surgeons went in to remove it, they found no tumor but rather a softball-sized cavity instead!) We need to expect God to perform miracles and pray accordingly that he will heal the sick and do things that even defy our understanding of the natural world.

8. If a Christian commits suicide can they still go to heaven?

 

Spiegel: This is actually a very personal question for me, since I lost a good friend who apparently killed himself. Yes, I think a Christian who commits suicide will still go to heaven. It is unfortunate that this is a live question for many people, since it assumes that if you die with unconfessed sin you’ll be disqualified somehow. But I’m sure that many Christians die with unconfessed sin or sins still unrepented of, whether that sin is lust, lying, envy, or suicide.  I think God’s grace will cover any of those sins. Having said that, to murder yourself is an especially grievous sin which is devastating to the loved ones of the person who takes her/his own life. And since there is a system of rewards in heaven, which is contingent on how righteously one lives on earth, we should want to do all we can to avoid forfeiting those and, as the Scripture says, making it to heaven as one “escaping through flames” (1 Cor. 3:15). There are many “crowns” (which seem to represent authority in the next world), and we risk losing our chance at receiving some or all of these by being chronically disobedient here or perhaps by committing some especially grievous sin like suicide. So, again, we should resolve to be totally obedient to Christ.